Fleetwood Mac 'Rumours' producer on making an iconic album | GRAMMY.com

The 2025 GRAMMYs, officially known as the 67th GRAMMY Awards, will air live on CBS and Paramount+ on Sunday, Feb. 2. Watch highlights from the 2025 GRAMMYs on live.GRAMMY.com.

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Editor’s Note: This interview was conducted before the onset of the wildfires in Los Angeles.

is still "selling energy" — putting forth what a younger generation might call blues rock "vibes" with his pals as if it were still 1970.

This ethos dates back to his time at the legendary Memphis label Stax Records, where Cropper served as a songwriter, producer, engineer and A&R. Crucially, Cropper was the guitarist in Stax's house band, Booker T. & The MGs — they of "Green Onions" fame — and backed artists including Otis Redding, Wilson Pickett, Sam & Dave, and Carla Thomas. Among his many bonafides, Cropper co-wrote Redding's "(Sittin’ On) The Dock Of The Bay."

In his post-Stax years, the two-time GRAMMY winner and nine-time nominee produced and played on sessions with Jeff Beck, Jose Feliciano, John Prine, John Cougar, and Tower Of Power. He later joined Levon Helm’s RCO All-Stars group and was among the original members in Dan Aykroyd and John Belushi's Blues Brothers band. Cropper resumed his solo career in the '80s, releasing several albums, while continuing to collaborate with leading lights like Paul Simon, Ringo Starr, Elton John and Steppenwolf.

Steve Cropper has stayed true to himself for over seven decades, thanks in no small part to advice from Stax founder Jim Stewart. "He said, 'Just play yourself and if they don't like it, they'll tell you,'" Cropper tells GRAMMY.com. "So I've been playing myself all my life and it's worked out. That's pretty cool."

At the 2025 GRAMMYs, Cropper is nominated in the Best Contemporary Blues Album Category for the aptly named Friendlytown, recorded with a mix of long-time collaborators and a few newer faces, together billed as Steve Cropper & the Midnight Hour. Friendlytown's 13 tracks are familiar, digestible and straight-ahead rockin' — the kind of tunes you'd be thrilled to hear in a local dive. Featuring ZZ Top's Billy Gibbons, Queen guitarist Brian May, singer Roger C Reale, and guitarist Tim Montana, Cropper co-wrote and co-produced all of Friendlytown with bassist Jon Tiven.

"Steve's guitar playing on the song 'Hurry Up Sundown' is probably some of his best solo work and rhythm work," Tiven says. "It's amazing that at this point in his career, he could still be creating some of the greatest music of his life. I think that's a wonderful testament to the strength of his talent."

Meet Me At The Friendlytown Trader Joe's

There was very little methodical music-making behind Friendlytown, which partially grew out of sessions Cropper put together for his 2021 album Fire It Up. "This record was just about a bunch of guys getting together and having some fun. It's just like, Let's have a blast and try to make the party come to the record, rather than the record come to the party," Tiven notes.

Cropper and Tiven had been working on songs for years with the hopes of finding friendly musicians to give them life. While some found homes, the duo sat on instrumentals for years — until Tiven ran into Billy Gibbons at Trader Joe's. When Tiven told the sharp-dressed man he was making a record with Steve Cropper, "He just lit up like a firecracker and said he'd like to bring us a song. I said, 'Well, it's only going on the record unless you play on it.' And he said, 'Well, that could be arranged.'"

Gibbons ended up on 11 tracks; Friendlytown marks the first time he and Cropper worked together in many years. The ZZ Top vocalist's influence is audible on the album, particularly the title track and Eliminator-esque "Lay It On Down."

In Session At Stax

While casual may be the name of Cropper's game these days, "it definitely wasn't 35, 40 years ago," he says. Back then (and largely before, as Cropper left the label in 1970), making music was "was very serious, and I don't even think the guys had a good time." With a laugh, Cropper recalls his best friend, the Stax bassist/MG Duck Dunn, pining for a world in which "Jim Stewart would've only smiled every now and then."  

While Cropper calls Stewart "the greatest guy I've ever met," the label head was known to be critical. "He knew if you fought for something, like a song, that it was a good song. And if you didn't fight for it, it wasn't worth nothing," Cropper says, chuckling. "He was right. I think about that all the time, but I don't use it. A songwriter could tell me how good a song they wrote is, but if I don't like it, I don't like it. I'm sorry!. I'm sure I've thrown away some good ones before." 

Read more: 1968: A Year Of Change For The World, Memphis & Stax Records

A young Cropper put up a couple of fights, and for good reason. He recalls stumping for Wilson Pickett's "Ninety-nine and a half": [Jim Stewart said] "You boys was out there woodsheddin’. That song ain't going to make it." Cropper pressed it, and Stewart relented. The track made the cut for Pickett's 1966 album The Exciting Wilson Pickett.

Another big Stax hit stayed on the shelf for nine months while Cropper and co. battled it out with Stax brass. "Finally Al Bell went to Jim and said, 'You got to put this record out. It's called ‘Knock on Wood.' And Jim says, 'Okay, but you got to use your own money,'" Cropper says. "He hated that record until it was a hit."

Reflecting on the hardest song he's ever played, Cropper quickly points to Sam and Dave's "Soul Man." But the 1967 smash isn't difficult for the reasons you might think: the guitarist had to balance a Zippo lighter on his leg during sessions and performances, which he used to mimic the song's opening horn line. "I always had to dance [when recording] with Sam and Dave, because they could hit a groove. A lot of guitar players don't know that I played with a Zippo lighter and I'd slide it," he recalls.

Cropper reportedly hated the sound and feel of new guitar strings — something, he says, is no longer the case in old age — and in a lip-smacking good tidbit of studio lore, explained how he managed his unique sound. "I carry a thing of ChapStick all the time and I would go up and down the strings; [that would] take about three months out of the string so it would sound like the rest of them."

Sittin' On A Legacy

After decades in the business, it seems as if Cropper – though ever a professional – doesn't take himself or the creative process too seriously. He jokingly shares a reccolation from a studio session during his Stax years: Once the session was finished, Cropper told the group "Damn, this sounds like a hit." "And Al Jackson said, 'Steve, they're all hits until they're released.' He's probably right."

One of Stax's reliable hitmakers was a close friend of Cropper's: Otis Redding. The two shared a deep musical bond and some shared history. Both musicians grew up on farms ("By the time I was 14, I was ready to leave the home. By the time I was 16, I was gone in my mind," Cropper notes) yet the guitarist describes Redding as "most streetwise person that I ever met. I think he just had it. It came natural to him."

Redding played guitar with one finger and you "never argued with Otis" — especially because he was never available for sessions for more than a day or two. Most Otis Redding albums, as a result, were compilations from different sessions.

"I remember we cut 'I Can't Turn You Loose' in 10 minutes," Cropper says. "[When we recorded] Otis Blue, we had everybody come back at 1 [a.m.] -- after they did their gig and they went home and had their shower – so we could cut it."

Cropper knew that  "(Sittin' On) The Dock Of The Bay" — arguably Redding's biggest hit, and Cropper's first GRAMMY win —  was a hit. "You know why I knew it was a hit? Because we had Otis the longest I'd had him; for two weeks."

The gentle lull of "Sittin'" was a radical departure from Redding's Southern soul bombast, and perhaps a sign of what was to come if the singer hadn't died tragically in a plane crash. "That one song, we searched for a long time. We call it crossover music; so it could go either way:, R&B, pop, whatever. That was the first one we ever had," Cropper says.

There's Always A Catch

Steve Cropper is still going strong at 83 years old. He reports that he enjoyed HBO's recent Stax Records docuseries, and has an unfinished instrumentals album in the can. He hasn't time for regrets, only dreams, but the name of the one person Cropper wishes he had worked with fires off like lightning: Tina Tuner.

Cropper saw the late legend three times. "I really did admire Tina. She was the closest person to Otis, I think, in the business. It's the yeller, screamer, but everybody loves their music. She was so good, it didn't matter how it was she's yelling and screaming," he says.

Tina Turner's loudest albums still have melody and something "people will walk away humming" — the very thing Cropper loved about  Stax records. "We were selling groove and all, rather than the music," Cropper says of his work with the MGs. "We don't care about the music. We just cared about melody and what's in the simplicity of the song."

Editor's Note: This article was updated with a new photo and YouTube videos on Dec. 16, 2024.

When it comes to holiday music, you can never go wrong with the tried-and-true classics.

Who doesn't love Nat "King" Cole's "The Christmas Song," Elvis Presley's "Blue Christmas," Mariah Carey's "All I Want For Christmas Is You," Charles M. Schulz's GRAMMY-nominated A Charlie Brown Christmas soundtrack, or any new version of a festive favorite?

Even so, it's always good to get out of one's comfort zone. With that in mind, unwrap these 12 outside-the-box Christmas songs, spanning rock to rap and featuring everything from refreshing spins on the familiar to unexpected holiday thrills.

Read More: New Christmas Songs For 2024: Listen To 50 Tracks From Pentatonix, Ed Sheeran, LISA & More

John Prine - "Christmas In Prison"

This firsthand account of spending the most joyous holiday locked up and separated from the one you love offers a different kind of longing than the average lonesome Christmas tune. In signature John Prine style, "Christmas In Prison" contains plenty of romantic wit ("I dream of her always, even when I don't dream) and comedic hyperbole ("Her heart is as big as this whole goddamn jail"), with plenty of pining and hope to spare.

"Christmas In Prison" appeared on Prine's third album, 1973's Sweet Revenge, and again as a live version on his 1994 album, A John Prine Christmas, which makes for perfect further off-beat holiday exploration.

Eric Johnson - "The First Nowell"

Gayla Peevey - "I Want a Hippopotamus for Christmas (Hippo the Hero)"

Who doesn't want a large semiaquatic mammal for the holidays? For then-10-year-old child star Gayla Peevey, not only did she score with the catchy tune, she also got her wish.

The 1953 novelty hit, written by John Rox, rocketed up the pop charts and led to a fundraising campaign to buy Peevey an actual hippo for Christmas. Children donated their dimes to the cause, and the Oklahoma City native got her hippo, named Mathilda, which she donated to the Oklahoma City Zoo.

The song itself features plodding brass instrumentals and unforgettable lyrics such as, "Mom says a hippo would eat me up but then/ Teacher says a hippo is a vegetarian." It seems Peevey still has a fond legacy with the hippo activist community — she was on hand in 2017 when the Oklahoma City Zoo acquired a pygmy hippopotamus.

The Vandals - "Oi To The World!"

In a contemplative mood this Christmas? Try getting into the holiday spirit by way of meditating on the true meaning of the season with this brash, uptempo Southern California crust punk tune.

Now the best-known song from the Vandals' 1996 Christmas album of the same name, "Oi To The World!" remained a relatively obscure track by the Huntington Beach punkers until it was covered by a rising pop/ska crossover band from nearby Anaheim, Calif., in 1997. (Perhaps you have heard of them — they were called No Doubt.) Ever since, the song has been a mainstay of the Vandals' live sets, and they have also played the album Oi To The World! in its entirety every year since its release at their annual Winter Formal show in Anaheim, now in its 29th year.

Outkast - "Player's Ball (Christmas Mix)"

Tom Waits - "Christmas Card From A Hooker In Minneapolis"

You'd be hard-pressed to find a more heartbreaking Christmas story than this Tom Waits' masterpiece from 1978's Blue Valentine. "Charlie, I'm pregnant and living on 9th Street," begins the Christmas card narrative in which a woman writes to an old flame, reporting how much better things are going since she quit drugs and alcohol and found a trombone-playing husband.

Waits' signature early career piano-plinking and tall-tale-storytelling weaves through a dream world of hair grease and used car lots, even sneaking in a Little Anthony And The Imperials reference. In the end, our narrator comes clean with the sobering lyric, "I don't have a husband, he don't play the trombone" before pleading, "I need to borrow money to pay this lawyer and Charlie hey, I'll be eligible for parole come Valentine's Day." For the uninitiated, this is the off-beat genius of GRAMMY winner Waits at his finest.

WINGER - "Silent Night"

Though they took some lumps in their '80s hair-metal heyday, few would dare deny Winger's talent and musicianship. Surely on display here, frontman Kip Winger (a GRAMMY-nominated classical musician) and his bandmates begin with a traditional unplugged reading of the Franz Xaver Gruber-penned holiday chestnut, complete with four-part harmony.

But then it gets really interesting: the boys get "funky" with an inside-out musical pivot that fuses percussive rhythmic accents, pentatonic-based acoustic riffing, Winger's gravely vocals, and some choice bluesy soloing (and high-pitched vocal responses) courtesy of lead guitarist Reb Beach.

The Hives & Cyndi Lauper - "In A Christmas Duel"

With lyrics that include "I know I should have thought twice before I kissed her" in the opening, you know you're in for a sleigh ride like none other. It's therefore no surprise that Cyndi Lauper and Swedish rock band the Hives' unconventional Christmas duel describes many marital hiccups that might make some blush.

Yet, the raucous duet somehow comes out on a high note, concluding, "We should both just be glad/And spend this Christmas together." The 2008 track was the brainchild of the Hives, who always wanted to do a song with Lauper. "This is a Christmas song whose eggnog has been spiked with acid, and whose definition of holiday cheer comes with a complimentary kick below the belt," wrote Huffington Post in 2013. "It's also an absolute riot."

LCD Soundsystem - "Christmas Will Break Your Heart"

Snoop Doggy Dogg, Dat Nigga Daz, Tray Deee, Bad Azz and Nate Dogg - "Santa Claus Goes Straight To The Ghetto"

Twisted Sister - "Silver Bells"

P-Lo feat. Larry June, Kamaiyah, Saweetie, LaRussell, G-Eazy, thủy & Ymtk) - "Players Holiday '25"

In anticipation of the 2025 NBA All-Star Game in San Francisco, P-Lo breathes new life into T.W.D.Y.'s classic "Players Holiday." Featuring Saweetie, Larry June, Kamaiyah, LaRussell, G-Eazy, thuy, and YMTK, the track celebrates Bay Area culture with its infectious energy and hometown pride. With its dynamic lineup and energetic vibe, "Players Holiday '25" is a love letter to the region's sound and legacy that bridges hip-hop and basketball culture.

This article features contributions from Nate Hertweck, Tim McPhate, Renée Fabian, Brian Haack, Philip Merrill, Nina Frazer and Taylor Weatherby.

Editor's note: This article was updated to include the latest information about Kendrick Lamar's 2024 album release 'GNX,' and up-to-date GRAMMY wins and nominations with additional reporting by Nina Frazier.

When the world crowns you the king of a genre as competitive as rap, your presence — and lack thereof — is palpable. After a five-year hiatus, Kendrick Lamar declaratively stomped back on stage with his fifth studio album, Mr. Morale & The Big Steppers, to explain why the crown no longer fits him.

Two years later, Lamar circles back to celebrate the west on 2024's GNX, a 12-track release that revels in the root of his love for hip-hop and California culture, from the lowriders to the rappers that laid claim to the golden state.

“My baby boo, you either heal n—s or you kill n—s/ Both is true, it take some tough skin just to deal with you” Lamar raps on "gloria" featuring SZA, a track that opines on his relationship with the genre.

The Compton-born rapper (who was born Kendrick Lamar Duckworth) wasn't always championed as King Kendrick. In hip-hop, artists have to earn that moniker, and Lamar's enthroning occurred in 2013 when he delivered a now-infamous verse on Big Sean's "Control."

"I'm Makaveli's offspring, I'm the King of New York, King of the Coast; one hand I juggle 'em both," Lamar raps before name-dropping some of the top rappers of the time, from Drake to J.Cole.

Whether you've been a fan of Lamar since before his crown-snatching verse or you find yourself in need of a crash course on the 37-year-old rapper's illustrious career, GRAMMY.com answers nine questions that will paint the picture of Lamar's more than decade-long reign.

Who Discovered Kendrick Lamar?

Due to the breakthrough success of his Aftermath Entertainment debut (good kid, m.A.A.d city), most people attribute Kendrick Lamar's discovery to fellow Compton legend Dr. Dre. But seven years before Dre's label came calling, Anthony "Top Dawg" Tiffith saw potential in a 16-year-old rapper by the name of K.Dot.

Lamar's first mixtape in 2004 was enough for Tiffith's Top Dawg Entertainment (TDE) to offer the aspiring rapper a deal with the label in 2005. However, Lamar would later learn that Tiffith's impact on his life dates back to multiple encounters between his father and the TDE founder, which Lamar raps about in his 2017 track "DUCKWORTH."

How Many Albums Has Kendrick Lamar Released?

Kendrick Lamar has released six studio albums: Section.80 (2011), Good Kid, M.A.A.D. City (2012), To Pimp a Butterfly (2015) DAMN. (2017),Mr. Morale & the Big Steppers (2022), and GNX (2024). Good Kid, M.A.A.D. City, To Pimp a Butterfly and DAMN. received both Rap Album Of The Year and Album Of The Year GRAMMY nominations. 

What Is Kendrick Lamar's Most Popular Song?

Across the board, it's "HUMBLE." The 2017 track is Lamar's only solo No. 1 on the Billboard Hot 100 (he also reached No. 1 status with Taylor Swift on their remix of her 1989 hit "Bad Blood"), and as of press time, "HUMBLE." is also his most-streamed song on Spotify and YouTube.

How Many GRAMMYs Has Kendrick Lamar Won?

As of November 2024, Kendrick Lamar has won 17 GRAMMYs and has received 57 GRAMMY nominations overall, solidifying his place as one of the most nominated artists in GRAMMY history and the second-most nominated rapper of all time, behind Jay-Z. Five of Lamar's 17 GRAMMY wins are tied to DAMN., which also earned Lamar the status of becoming the first rapper ever to win a Pulitzer Prize.

His most recent wins include three awards at the 2023 GRAMMYs, which included two for his album Mr. Morale & The Big Steppers, and Best Rap Performance for "The Hillbillies" with Baby Keem. 

Does Kendrick Lamar Have Any Famous Relatives?

He has two: Rapper Baby Keem and former Los Angeles Lakers star Nick Young are both cousins of his.

Lamar appeared on three tracks — "family ties," "range brothers" and "vent" — from Keem's debut album, The Melodic Blue. Keem then returned the favor for Mr. Morale & The Big Steppers, featuring on "Savior (Interlude)" and "Savior" as well as receiving production and writing credits on "N95" and "Die Hard."

Read More: Meet The First-Time GRAMMY Nominee: Baby Keem On Inspiring Rap's Next Generation, Why "Producer Artists" Are The Best & The Likelihood Of A Kendrick Lamar Collab Album

Why Did Kendrick Lamar Wear A Crown Of Thorns?

Lamar can be seen sporting a crown of thorns on the Mr. Morale & The Big Steppers album cover. He has sported the look for multiple performances since the project's release.

Dave Free described the striking headgear as, "a godly representation of hood philosophies told from a digestible youthful lens."

Holy symbolism and the blurred line between kings and gods are themes Lamar revisits often on Mr. Morale & The Big Steppers. He uses lines like "Kendrick made you think about it, but he is not your savior" and songs like "Mirror" to reject the unforeseen, God-like expectations that came with his King of Hip-Hop status.

According to Vogue, the Tiffany & Co. designed crown features 8,000 cobblestone micro pave diamonds and took over 1,300 hours of work by four craftsmen to construct.

Why Did Kendrick Lamar Leave TDE?

After five albums, four mixtapes, one compilation project, an EP, and a GRAMMY-nominated Black Panther: The Album, Kendrick Lamar and Top Dawg Entertainment (TDE) confirmed that Mr. Morale & The Big Steppers was the Compton rapper's last project under the iconic West Coast label. 

According to Lamar, his departure was about growth as opposed to any internal troubles. "May the Most High continue to use Top Dawg as a vessel for candid creators. As I continue to pursue my life's calling," Lamar wrote on his website in August 2021. "There's beauty in completion."

TDE president Punch expressed a similar sentiment in an interview with Mic. "We watched him grow from a teenager up into an established grown man, a businessman, and one of the greatest artists of all time," he said. "So it's time to move on and try new things and venture out."

Before Lamar's official exit from TDE, he launched a new venture called pgLang — a multi-disciplinary service company for creators, co-founded with longtime collaborator Dave Free — in 2020. The young company has already collaborated with Cash App, Converse and Louis Vuitton.

Has Kendrick Lamar Ever Performed at The Super Bowl?

Yes, Kendrick Lamar performed in the halftime show for Super Bowl LVI in Los Angeles in 2022, alongside fellow rap legends Dr. Dre, Snoop Dogg and Eminem, as well as R&B icon Mary J. Blige. Anderson .Paak and 50 Cent also made special appearances during the star-studded performance. As if performing at the Super Bowl in your home city wasn't enough, the Compton rapper also got to watch his home team, the Los Angeles Rams, hoist the Lombardi trophy at the end of the night.

Three years after his first Super Bowl halftime performance, Lamar will return to headline the Super Bowl LIX halftime show on Feb. 9, 2025 — just one week after the 2025 GRAMMYs — at the Caesars Superdome in New Orleans. 

Is Kendrick Lamar On Tour?

Yes. Kendrick Lamar is currently scheduled to hit the road with SZA on the Grand National Tour beginning in May 2025. Lamar concluded The Big Steppers Tour in 2022, where he was joined by pgLang artists Baby Keem and Tanna Leone. The tour included a four-show homecoming at L.A.'s Crypto.com Arena in September 2022, followed by performances in Europe,Australia, and New Zealand through late 2022. 

Currently, there are no upcoming tour dates scheduled, but fans should check back for updates following the release of GNX.

With massive crowds and countless critics raving about her debut album, Ravyn Lenae knew what she had to do: completely ignore all of the expectations that led to it.

"I knew in order for me to keep evolving as an artist and a person, there was no choice but to let those boundaries go,"she says from her home in Los Angeles. 

After building up a growing following in Chicago alongside other members of the Zero Fatigue Collective (which includes producer Monte Booker and rapper Smino), Lenae relocated to the West Coast. She made a massive mark on 2022’s Hypnos, which featured a beguiling mix of alt R&B, house and soul alongside Renae’s magnetic vocal presence.

And rather than coast, Lenae dug deeper for the followup, Bird’s Eye (due Aug. 9). Working with frequent Kendrick Lamar collaborator and in-demand producer DJ Dahi, Bird’s Eye flutters across genres and influences — pulling from Fleetwood Mac on one track, drawing in Childish Gambino on another, and adding Jimmy Jam’s bass elsewhere. Indicative of these multifarious influences are two pre-release singles: the retro pop-leaning "Love Me Not" and the soulfully skipping "Love Is Blind." 

Lenae uses that shapeshifting methodology as a way to interrogate the concepts of love and relationships — never content to rest on her laurels, learning how best to grow and adapt. "Making the songs and getting to the bottom of what they meant for me was me kind of retracing my steps a little bit and really acknowledging all these moments in my life, in my childhood, that were pivotal for me and my identity," she says. 

Nearing the release of Bird’s Eye, Lenae spoke with GRAMMY.com about directing the video for "Love Me Not" in Chicago, blending Brazilian music with Prince inflections, and how the album helped her reconnect with her father.

A lot seems to have happened in the two years since 'Hypnos.' On a month-to-month, day-to-day basis, how much do you shift creatively?

It feels like night and day to me, even though it's been a really short amount of time. During this time between Hypnos and this album — the recording and creating process —  a lot unlocked with me. [There was] a lot of personal growth that happened that allows me to approach music in a much freer and kind of impulsive way.

With the last album and that process, I think I did place a lot of parameters around what I had to be, what I had to sound like, what it had to feel like, who I had to connect with. And I kind of just released all of those expectations with this and made music that I wanted to hear.

How easy was it to actually release those boundaries and work more more in the moment?

I knew in order for me to keep evolving as an artist and a person, there was no choice but to let those boundaries go, if I wanted to keep pursuing music in a way that felt honest. And then being able to collaborate with people such as Dahi, who has kind of mastered that in a lot of ways, and learning from him and seeing his process, seeing how easy and natural it is to just fall into what feels right…

I think the longer you're in an industry or you're in something, the more rules you place on [creativity] and the more you overthink it and try to mold it in a way that doesn't feel impactful. As an artist, being around him and him encouraging that type of process, I think that was a lot of it, too.

Dahi's worked with some incredible artists, and clearly in a way that accentuates that artist rather than making it about DJ Dahi. That must have been so perfectly aligned with your openness, to go in and let yourself learn what you wanted to do. They always say if you know too much and plan everything out, you’ll end up stifled creatively.

It's so true. And that's why I describe it as me kind of returning back to that 12-year-old me, that 13-year-old me, before I cared about opinions, what people thought about me and what I was doing, what I was wearing I think we start off that way, and then the older we get, the more we get so self-conscious and we judge ourselves more harshly than everyone else.

Why do we do that?!

[Laughs.] I think it's just human nature. And then we try to unlearn all of it.

Even just in daily life, it's so hard to not think about what I could have done at any given moment. And when you’re creating music, there are 5 million ways you can create the same idea and you have to just land on that one.

A hundred percent. During this process, we would have a song idea and then three different versions of that song that hit completely different feelings — maybe a more soft rock version of it, maybe a more indie version of it, maybe a more soulful version. Then it was about having to settle into what is "the one" and what feels the best, versus like what's going to chart or what's going to get in the club. Having to release all of that and just really lean into what feels good is what works every time.

That relates even to how the album was announced, with two tracks that almost speak in conversation with one another. Those songs balance such clever hooks with more nuanced conversation about how conflicted and complex love and relationships can be. How did you find that balance between emotional realism and such immediate music?

It was just really feeling empowered and confident in my decision making. And that's something that's developed over time, too. Really listening to my voice and what I want out of music in my career and my rollout, you know?

Listening to that, obviously having people around me who are like-minded in that way like my management and my team. We all kind of empowered each other to lean into those feelings. At no point in this process did anything feel forced or like I was reaching for something.

That’s so interesting. You want your team to feel supportive but you also want to feel empowered to take risks away from that support. And that reminds me of “Love Me Not,” which has some really smart risks. It's that vintage pop feeling, right down to the clap-along beats, and the vocals feel right in your ear. So when you started working on that track, for example, did you always imagine it being that nostalgia, that warmth? 

I thought that there was just something so cool and timeless, a classic feeling about it. And my songs are the ones where you can really pinpoint what the influences are, or when this was made, or the person behind it. Having a song like that, that really reminded me of Outkast. Like, What is this?

Even before it dropped, I remember having some anxiety around maybe my fans not liking it because it feels a little different from Hypnos. I think anytime you kind of jump outside of the bubble you've kind of created, it's scary because there are people living in that bubble with you who like the temperature in there. 

It’s so important to be constantly revitalized in your work. If you’re doing the same thing, even if your fans are demanding it, you’re not going to get that. And hopefully when your fans see all that you can do, they’ll follow it. 

Yeah. And there's so much left in me to explore into and put out into the world. And look at an artist's career, someone like Tyler, the Creator: Seeing where his sound started and how he's almost trained his fans’ ears to be receptive to something new every time. They've completely grown up with him in a lot of ways and expanded their palate. Kind of forcing the hand of listeners is something that's really interesting to me. [Laughs.]

I love that idea of pushing yourself and pushing your fans, but still within the realm of what's good. [Laughs] Not just experimenting for the sake of it. Speaking of growing and experimenting, I wanted to ask about the “Love Me Not” music video that you directed. It feels so well shot but still so intimate and casual.

I knew with the album and how I wanted the imagery to feel, it would be very homey. Making the songs and getting to the bottom of what they meant for me was me kind of retracing my steps a little bit and really acknowledging all these moments in my life, in my childhood, that were pivotal for me and my identity, those first moments where I felt like I was getting closer to myself in a way. 

A lot of that started on the South side of Chicago, at my grandmother's house, in the basement. Even the cover of the album symbolizes that transition for me. That's where I dyed my hair red for the first time in the basement, in the sink, so coming back to the sink and dyeing my hair ginger on the cover was something that felt so powerful and defining for me. It just made perfect sense that we were going to go back to Chicago for the first video, in my grandmother's house, with all my family members involved. Those are my grandparents, my mom, my sisters, so that's why it feels so loose and candid. I really wanted to give people a glimpse into my life and what it felt like walking into my childhood home.

Getting to see a place through someone else’s eyes is so extraordinary. It really makes the little details pop. For example, the plantains cooking on the stove at the beginning.

Yeah. I associate plantains with my grandparents, my family. We’re of Panamanian West Indian descent, so those smells and those sounds, I really wanted to incorporate into the video.

That really speaks to bringing some comfort along with the risk-taking, same as having your family around. The features do a great job of bolstering you, setting up that stability, particularly Ty Dolla $ign on "Dreamgirl."

I think we just had the idea to kind of take the song into a different world in a way. When we first started the first section of the song, I just knew there was magic there. Those Prince drums and that Brazilian guitar — why do those make sense together? It shouldn't ever make sense together. But when I heard it? Oh my god, this feels like something fresh and new, but also like I've felt this feeling before.

Dahi's brain is just incredible, and then even bringing in Jimmy Jam on it to do bass was a dream come true. I knew it kind of felt like it existed in that Janet stratosphere, and I thought it would be such a cool touch for him to do that personally. Dream come true on all spectrums. I love Ty Dolla $ign, obviously grew up listening to him. He's incredible and I was so honored that he wanted to do it.

Besides Janet, were there any particular artists who were kind of central inspirations for this album specifically?

Sonically, Janet is always in the mix. With this one in particular, some Gwen Stefani, No Doubt, a little bit of Fleetwood Mac in there. I just love taking these worlds that are very different from each other and kind of mashing them and seeing what happens. It's like my favorite thing ever.

You’re trained in classical music, and it's so clear that you understand the range of emotion that you can convey. I'm just curious what happened when you went into recording — or even before that, in the writing. What was it like digging into yourself to find the narrative that matched the mashing?

Honestly, I don't think there was much premeditation with the writing and what I wanted to touch on in a way. Really leaning into those impulsive initial first feelings that a song gives me is something I really valued with this album. And moving forward, that'll be my process.

What was premeditated with the writing process with this album was, with every song, trying to really peel back those layers in my brain and those barriers lyrically. Like, What would I naturally say? Think of that and then think, Okay, how can I make this even more literal, even more personal? Even in working with my girl [songwriter] Sarah Aarons, I learned a lot from her as far as songwriting and how to really paint a picture that feels clear and concise and emotional. Not trying to find the prettiest words or the most interesting words, but really writing what feels real. And that's something that I've really, really valued and learned with this process.

Even with “One Wish” with Childish Gambino, the whole album feels like this big conversation on relationships. Being more direct feels like some advice someone would get with a relationship itself, let alone writing about it. Did that process help you actually process what was happening in your life too?

Oh man, 100 percent. And that's why music is so beautiful to me. It's really a means of opening dialogue between me and myself, and then me and the people in my life. With a song that's so important to me like “One Wish," it’s not just because it's a great song, but because this has really catapulted me into this different part of my life and repairing relationships, opening up difficult conversations — like with my father in particular. Hearing such a simple song and the response I've gotten from it has only validated me much more in the fact that these real stories, real emotions are what connects.

Have you played the album for your father?

We started repairing or rekindling our relationship maybe two years ago. The making of Bird’s Eye was at its peak and I felt like it was important for me to have a song on the album that addressed my relationship with him in order for me to release it and start to move on in a positive way.

So sharing the song with him, inviting him to be in the music video was huge for us. And then even after debriefing about maybe some feelings that came up when he heard certain lyrics or when he saw certain scenes in the video, it just opened up this really honest, candid dialogue between us and I couldn't be more grateful that I have this outlet.